UK Sherman III (M4A2) DV

Neuling
Good teamwork!

Danny Ray
This looks fantastic. I'm a bit jealous because I'm planning a build with a Sherman III (in British terms), Crusaders and Stuart's, Matilda's, etc (though maybe not all at once. I don't think 2nd El Alamein had ALL allied tanks fighting, from every era?)
Anyway, the build is for a tribute to my old grandad who co-drove Crusaders and Shermans. His unit was 10th Royal Hussars and if you see the markings and paint schemes they used, it's the most plain out of them all. No camo whatsoever. Also, rather than the yellow tinged sand/stone colour used by most, they used a brown (think it's RAL8000).
In order to be accurate I'll do it in the correct colours but I'd have liked to camo it up!
(By the way I'm very much a novice and it'll take me a long time to attempt this. I have over 40 kits to practice on though 😳😍😁🤓😂)

Scott Dutton
Don't worry about being a novice, just enjoy what you do, that way you improve

Danny Ray
Good advice Scott. Can you remember who made this kit? I'm having trouble deciding which one to go for. I'm contemplating plastic individual track links and using 0.2mm wire cut down as pins (no glue), so I guess that limits my choice? (By the way and I bet you get this a LOT. Isn't Dutton the name that Kevin Costner's family have in the show Yellowstone?. You ain't a Montana cattle baron, are you? 😃).

Danny Ray
Sorry. I saw the kit. It's a Dragon 6573. It doesn't have the correct Markings for my grandads memorial (10th Hussars, 2nd arm brig, 1st arm div) but they are available after market. I got some already actually from eBay. I don't suppose anyone here would know off the top of their heads if this type of Sherman fought at 2nd Alamein battle? It gets a bit confusing because Sherman III's were known as Sherman II's by the Brits. So I'm led to believe?

Danny Ray
Sorry for all the questions Scott but the aerials and pennants some use (like the 2 here), are they part of the kit or do you buy those separately? I've never seen them in any kit.

Jakko ‌
Aerials are easy to make from metal wire. I prefer 0.3 mm spring steel myself, which you can buy from model shops that cater to people who scratchbuild working models in metal, like those making ships, trains, steam engines, etc. The advantage of spring steel is that it will curve but not bend if you accidentally hit it, unlike brass or copper wire. Do use cutters suitable for it, though — it will ruin ones that aren't strong enough. Then just drill a hole slightly larger than the wire, as deep as you can, and superglue it in.

For the tracks, the MiniArt T41 or WE210 sets are probably the easiest choice if you want plastic ones. Slightly tricky to build, but not actually bad once you get the hang of it (and make a simple jig from some bits of wood). Stay away from Bronco, they will drive you crazy 🙁

T41 WORKABLE TRACK LINK SET (MiniArt 35322, 1:35)
WE210 Workable Track Link Set (MiniArt 35323, 1:35)

Danny Ray
Thanks Jakko. That's typical, I've just ordered some 0.3mm enamelled copper wire that I was planning on using as track link pins instead of the flimsy plastic ones that come with (I just bought a border models Crusader III for a planned memorial for my grandad, a co-driver on crusaders and shermans in 10th hussars in N Africa and Italy) a recent kit. These are the tracks I meant. Also as part of the memorial I was planning on getting a Dragon 6447 (the El Alamein one with magic tracks). They both employ these ridiculous plastic pins that are so thin they immediately bend , even if you manage to get them off the sprue intact! lol

Danny Ray
By the way Jakko. Can you buy the small penants they seemed to use so often in North Africa? I don't think I've seen them used elsewhere but they seemed to be everywhere in NA.

Danny Ray
Thing is, I'm a very, very green modeller. Built a few as a kid but only on my 4th build as an adult. The expensive Miniart and Border and Dragon kits will be done at a much later date once I've made lots of mistakes on cheaper ones. Also I'm still trying to get to terms with the airbrush I bought. Think I've bent the needle slightly already. I'm not the most practical person going but I really want to do a good job on this memorial build I'm planning with his medals and cap badges. His badges include one that has a WW1 male tank and the words "fear naught". They are great.

Jakko ‌
You could use the copper wire for aerials, too — just be careful you don't bend it. (OTOH, copper wire is also fairly easy to straighten if you do bend it 🙂)

As for the pennants, they were mainly a North Africa thing, AFAIK. They're easy enough to make yourself. Cut one from, say, aluminium kitchen foil, slightly longer than you need it to be. Wrap that extra length around the aerial, superglue it in place, and paint the pennant. (Best do this before adding the aerial to the model, though, as it will be much easier.)

For a Sherman kit, I would recommend the Asuka Sherman III over the Dragon one, really. I just don't like the way the Dragon Shermans go together, or the coarseness of a lot of their detail, but I do like the Asuka ones 🙂 Only thing is that this kit has the later style of suspension with the return rollers behind the bogies, unlike Scott's model, which has them on the top. If you've got photos of your grandfather's tank, though, you can probably check which kind his had.

Sherman III (ASUKA Model 35-017, 1:35)

Scott Dutton
Danny, Go the Asuka kit, much nicer.
Decals were from left overs and some aircraft ones and home made

Danny Ray
Thanks fellas. I think that sherman III was available during 2nd battle of el alamein. We brits called sherman III's sherman II's, i think. Unfortunately all photos of my grandads war were lost back in 1993. Im so glad i didnt buy tge dragon kit last night. Came very close!
Gonna get this today. Thank you both so much for your advice. Do you mind if i ask you both the odd question from time to time? Maybe i can add you both as 'scalemates'? 🙂

Danny Ray
By the way I think I already said but I already have some Sherman decals that were on a 10th hussars tank in NA and that was a major reason I was choosing the dragon kit, cos it has 10th hussars decals but it isn't a deal breaker cos I have them. They are a white rhino on a black pill shape and a white '67' on a red square and a blue circle with a '2' inside 🙂

Jakko ‌
Feel free to add me as a mate, and/or PM me if you want to ask a question you think I might have an answer to 🙂

The British didn't call the Sherman II a Sherman III — they called the "Medium Tank, M4" the "Sherman" because all the M-numbers were confusing, and then numbered them as follows: M4 = Sherman I, M4A1 = Sherman II, M4A2 = Sherman III, M4A3 = Sherman IV, M4A4 = Sherman V. At the second battle of El Alamein, the British Army had only the Sherman II and III in service. For the II, your best option is Sherman II (ASUKA Model 35-014, 1:35) as it's the correct very early type, with the early bogies (like on Scott's Sherman III) and the direct vision flaps in front of the drivers' hatches. For the Sherman III, use the kit I linked to earlier, but you will need to replace the bogies by M4 Sherman “VVSS” Suspen..t (ASUKA Model 35-L15, 1:35) which is hard to get unless you order direct from Asuka: tasca-shop.ocnk.net/product/480

Danny Ray
Jakko forgive me but why would I need to replace the bogies? I thought you said the Brits had Sherman III's at 2nd Alamein?
As an aside (and could possibly excuse my needing to replace them) he did go on to operate Shermans when the 10th Hussars were eventually redeployed to Italy). Though, it'd be a big diorama if it incorporated Libya and Italy! lol

I guess I could have a crusader for his earlier career and the Sherman III for the later career but If I'm honest, I'd prefer to make it accurate all to North Africa. Sorry if I seem a bit dim with the questions. Also I'll friend request you so I don't keep sabotaging Mr Dutton's thread! 🙂

Jakko ‌
Ah, yes, I didn't explain the bogies that well 🙂 Early Shermans had bogies with the return roller on top, which was the same model of bogie as used on the M3, AKA Lee/Grant. From late 1942 or so, though, the factories switched to the type with the return roller behind the bogie body.

All of the Shermans at El Alamein would have been produced when they still used the earlier type, but the Asuka Sherman III kit has the later style, which is correct for the latter part of the war in North Africa (and Italy), but not for El Alamein. By replacing the bogies, though, it will be. Of course, tanks with the early bogies kept them, so you can also see those in Tunisia or Italy.

Danny Ray
So just to be clear. The British had M4A1 and M4A2 at Alamein (2nd battle)? Which is the American Sherman II and Sherman III? And the kits are listed under the American system? So a Sherman III is an M4 A2? Which were there? Due to not knowing which type my grandfather was in, either an A1 or A2 type is ok. What is the DVSS suspension issue with the M4A2 type? Sorry if my questions are making your eyes roll? 😂

Jakko ‌
As one of my physics teachers in school used to say, "There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers" 🙂

But yes, you're correct: British Shermans at the second battle of El Alamein were mostly M4A1s (which the British called Sherman Mk. II) and some M4A2s (which they called Sherman Mk. III). To go from American to British designation, basically just take the American A-number, add 1, and make it Roman: M4A1 becomes II, for example. This applies to Shermans only, BTW!

The issue with the VVSS in the Asuka Mk. III kit is that it has the return roller behind the bogie, not on top of it. Take a look at the.shadock.free.fr/..vvss_suspension.html for more than you probably ever wanted to know about Sherman VVSS 🙂

Scott Dutton
By coincidence, picked up that suspension set at swap meet on Sunday. AUD$15

Danny, easy way to remember British Designation. Add 1 to the US designation. M4 is effectively M$(AO) hence 0+1 = Sherman 1. M4A4 (A4+1 = 5) Sherman V you then play around with composites and 17 Pdr versions (Add a C). Work backwards Sherman II is therefore M4A1, the cast hull version

Id love to find a aftermarket HVSS (E* set). Noone seems to do a M4A1 76mm with E8 suspension (Except Tamiya which is an DF one and it has different back deck)
That .fr site is magnificent

Scott Dutton
This is indeed the correct kit Sherman II (ASUKA Model 35-014, 1:35), you can see the early bogies with the return rollers up top
Has the sand shields as well and the oil can holder on front fender. Way to go.

Scott Dutton
This one Sherman III (ASUKA Model 35-017, 1:35) is british Sherman 3 (M4A2) with early VVSS (In title) but the instructions show it with return rollers to rear so would need that suspension set mentioned above

This one Sherman III (Tasca 35-L28, 1:35) appears correct . This appears the only Asuka/Tasca one with correct parts OOB

Danny Ray
Thanks chaps for all the help. Really enlightening. So, I'm thinking I'll go for the Asuka (cos it's better detail than the dragon kit) 35-014. I did look at one set of instructions (can't remember which one it was of the Asuka range) and you had to cut small rectangles of rubber sheet (what?, where?, how? lol) for the suspension! Don't they know I'm a beginner for gawd's sake? lol.
Anyway, what do you reckon? The Asuka (which is a rerelease of a Tasca kit (I think)

Danny Ray
Such a shame they don't have any 10th hussars decals in any of them. They do in the dragon kit but I can buy more of them anyway.
The dragon kit paint scheme for 10th hussars showed a total lack of camo and, in fact, they seemed to totally ignore what everyone else was using, ie sand/stone coloured base paint and used a kind of brown. It'll take me a while but I'll post the info I found. I think it was RAL8000.

Danny Ray
By the way in the 10th hussars battle report for 2nd battle of El Alamein they were really in the thick of things. I really wish my old grandad was still around. He was a very quiet man and I only remember him speaking of it (the war) twice. When he was drunk. Me being a teenager and far more interested in what diadora trainers or Pringle diamond jumper (it was the 80's!! 🙂 ) I was gonna wear didn't help.
Also, losing all his wartime photos was a massive blow. Would've been so helpful. Just glad I have his medals and cap badges.
Once again fellas. Thank you.

Jakko ‌
> Id love to find a aftermarket HVSS

Again, Asuka's web shop, tasca-shop.ocnk.net/product-list/15 🙂 They sell them for ¥2300 if you want soft-plastic T80 or T84 tracks with hard plastic blocks to glue to the outside, or ¥2800 for the same set but with workable T66 tracks in hard plastic — see the second photo in M4 (105 mm) HVSS | Album by Jakko (1:35)

> you had to cut small rectangles of rubber sheet (what?, where?, how? lol) for the suspension!

The kits also include a plastic sprue with rectangular bits marked A, B and C, but the earlier kits don't mention this in the instructions. The idea is that these bits of plastic go into the bogies instead of the rubber, and let you decide on the ride height (an empty tank sits higher than a fully loaded one, and it will also sit lower if the springs are worn). If you look at the Sherman III kit's instructions, you'll see them mentioned on the right of the page in step 4, where it says you can also use "Spacers A".

> I think it was RAL8000.

Unlikely, as that was a German colour. If you want to be accurate, your best reference for colours used is almost certainly Mike Starmer's "British Military Camouflage & Colours: Alamein& After 1942-1943" which can be purchased direct from him: matadormodels.co.uk/..um/xcamo_starmer.htm

Danny Ray
Wow Jakko. I'm really am impressed at your knowledge. It never even occurred to me about ride height depending on who or what is inside!
I just checked the instructions for the dragon 6447 Sherman El Alamein kit (the one I was originally gonna get). Their colour scheme for 10th hussars says the colour is 72/22 (of whose scale I'm not sure) but it's described as 'Dark Earth'. They show equivalents of mr hobby and aqueous colour scales but can't remember what they were. Does any of that sound remotely accurate? I wish I could post screenshots in these comments! 🙂

Jakko ‌
TBH, you would probably be better off asking questions like these over on Missing-Lynx (tapatalk.com/groups/..ussion-group-f47208/) or KitMaker (forums.kitmaker.net/..afv-scale-modeling/6) 🙂 You get a lot of very knowledgeable people there, many more than will read it here on Scalemates.

Danny Ray
Nice one Jakko. You and Scott have been a big help. I've decided. Going for the Sherman 35-014 kit by Asuka posted above. The one that won't need any aftermarket suspension changes.
I have plenty of time to research colours, etc. got a long way to go before I'm ready 🙂
I'll end up with a hundred unmade kits and the skills of an 8 year old if things continue like this though. Best I get my finger out and have a go at airbrushing some plastic spoons, etc 😇😂😂😂😂😁🤣😂

Danny Ray
Joined the AFV group on tapatalk. Waiting for approval. So I can stop posting on your thread Scott Dutton. Apologies for all the notifications!!

Jakko ‌
Glad to have helped, and hope to see you there 🙂

Danny Ray
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Scott Dutton
Didn't realise Asuka offered this service for sprues et.
Re colours, I love AK Real Color paints. They mix with Tamiya Acrylics and MR Hobby Aqueous.
You can download a pdf with the colours, grouped by country. They're meant to be colour matched to the original colours. Good start. They also did a hard cover book detailing all the paints in use by combatant, time and theatre. Not cheap but very useful.
The rubber th8ngs in suspension also allows articulation in case making a diorama and need to have suspension riding over terrain features

Danny Ray
That'd be very useful Scott. I'll research it all first.

Danny Ray
I did also find a site where it compares the colours. Hold on I'll see if I can find a link modelshade.com/paint-conversion-chart/

Danny Ray
They grade it by how close the colours are to each other. Though it misses out a lot.

Danny Ray
Have you fellas seen that site before? Any good?

Danny Ray
This the AK one you meant Scott? ak-masters.com/app/pdf/RCEquivalenceDIG.pdf

Jakko ‌
> Didn't realise Asuka offered this service for sprues et.

It's not that easy to discover, I admit 🙂 But I've ordered from them a couple of times and am quite happy with the service. Only real issue is that far from everything is actually available, so you might not be able to get the ones you're really after. Also, if you need a lot of parts from a single kit, it'll probably be cheaper just to buy that whole kit instead, of course.

Scott Dutton
Not quite. I can't find as pdf but the above search gives as image. There is a pages for afv, it has the paint jar and a petrol bowser connection. The air after range has a remove before flight tag. Central images in search link above

Danny Ray
Won't work on my phone. Might be cos I'm not using Google browser.

Scott Dutton
Pm me your email and I'll try andshoot it across