Spanish Peral submarine

Spanjaard
I am in. if you want details, the spanish national archives have digitaliced the original plans of the sub.

Jan Peters
Welcome Spanjaard 🙂
It is a fascinating machine, looks more modern than it is.

Ben M
👀

Jan Peters
Welcome Ben

Ben M
Another early Spanish submarine project you might enjoy: Ictineo II | Album by RoggyCGD (1:46)

Jan Peters
That is very nice indeed Ben!

Ben M
There was another build as well but it seems to have vanished from scalemates.

Guy Rump
Following! 👍

Robert Podkoński
Taking a seat.

Jan Peters
Welcome mates 🫡

Spanjaard
I have been playing with the idea of making some PE to improve the platform structure, but the rudders certainly could use some improvements ...
In regards to the propeller, I believe the shape is the correct one. before it was moved to the museum, it had a diferent color, but the sub has been repaired several times in the last 100+ years. see how it looked like before moved to the museum
[img1]

Jan Peters
Ok, thanks for the information Spanjaard 👍🏻
The platform is not that bad, but the poles holding the rope are too flat, so these will be made from plastic rod.
Regarding the rudders, I'm not sure if I can live with carved kit part, I might have a go and try to scratch new ones.

Jennifer Franklin
Fascinating, taking a seat.

Jan Peters
Welcome Jennifer

Spanjaard
actually, I believe the poles did not hold any rope, but also a metal piece. let me see if I can find it for you.

Spanjaard
I think this image explains what I mean

[img1]

Spanjaard
technical drawing of the original piece from national archives
pares.mcu.es/ParesBu..atalogo/show/7343756
you can download the image if you click on the floppy disk. when you open the file locally, you will see it a lot more clear

Jan Peters
Thanks Spanjaard 👍🏻
I must say, all original images do not show any wood and/ or railing in place, so I might not even add it to the model.

Spanjaard
yes, you are correct, it seems it was something that could be removed. it appears in seversl pictures without it.

Sergio Ordonez
Lovely Project, Jan!
In my opinión, after having a clase look to the photographs the railing apears to be made of a smoothet and better worked material so, I think, the railing and the platform have bern added for exposición purposes many years after the deco of this sub.

Spanjaard
they are in the original plans Sergio 😉 check Spanish National archives link above 😉

Sergio Ordonez
I saw the rest of them, Spaniard. My main concern is, as a draughtsman, that the rest of components are drawn (with excepctional quality and ability) in vegetal paper using ink, ideal for making copies through hand tracing, those drawings for chandeliers, platform, gardeners and such are drawn with a graphite pencil over graph paper (high quality, made by Lapage), as a mere draft (again, drawn with excepctional skill for the epoch), but no other stardard drawing shows the assembly or the constructive drawing of the element.
Lapage stopped production in the 90s, and I am not sure if their products were available in 1890.

Spanjaard
installation of the platform pares.mcu.es/ParesBu..atalogo/show/7343759
supports of the platform pares.mcu.es/ParesBu..atalogo/show/7343761
according to the site, it is digitaliced from the original plans made by Peral.
I am not sure what will I do when I build this model, if i will add the platform or not. but details are there if anyone wants to use them

Spanjaard
[img1]
seems to be a picture of the period, with platform

Jan Peters
According to the drawings the support of the platform is a triangular shape, not like it is represented by mikromir. It would mean a lot of extra work to scratch these, so the chances of it being built without platform are increased significantly 😅

Jan Peters
I appreciate your help Spanjaard and Sergio 🙏🏻

Sergio Ordonez
Thanks, mate, but Spaniard has a lot more information than me. I only can remember the sub lying on a city square many years ago and I cannot remember the platform, even the superstructure.
You know, the sub was decommissioned in the XIX century and was abandones as scrap till was used as a monument, so I think many parts have been lost and substituted by other similar. I Will follow your build with interest, subs are though: they do not give the modeler a lot of chance, so I bow my hat, mate.

Spanjaard
for what i see in the pictures (never seen it live myself), Segio is right, there was no platform when it was in its pedestal in the square.
considering how close it was to be scrapped, we are lucky that the exterior has survived, platform and all interior were gone a long time ago.... I read an article saying that the engine used to recharge the battery still exists, but it is rusting away but politicians are not doing anything in order to add it to the exhibition before it becomes a pile of rust....

Jan Peters
That's a sad situation Spanjaard, all it takes are a few people with vision and passion (and money) to safe such a piece of history.

Robert Podkoński
Out of curiosity: are all three propellers given as PE parts in the kit?

Jan Peters
All 4 are Robert

Jan Peters
Moving on

Jan Peters
Painted grey, after drying the fiddly bits come on.

Jan Peters
Managed to get the photo etch screws and cages on the model, that is enough for today 😁

Spanjaard
almost done 🙂 looking good

Thomas Espe
👀

Jan Peters
Thanks Spanjaard, still some work to do.
Welcome Thomas

Jan Peters
While looking for detail photo's I came across this artwork:
murciatoday.com/isaa..quare_2129783-a.html

Robert Podkoński
Great job with the propellors, Jan!

Spanjaard
about the mess behind the glass.... are you sure is not just pixelation of the picture? where is it located exactly?

Jan Peters
I've got another picture, which is clearer. I will upload it to the album.
They are located at the bottom of the hull, near the small propellers both front and rear.

Ben M
Maybe vents for ballast?

Spanjaard
you are right, certainly some mesh there, let me see if I can find something in the drawings I have.

Jan Peters
That would be great, thanks 👍🏻

Spanjaard
i am uncertain about the mesh... but this picture flickr.com/photos/ph..zg5-2j6ZtKR-2j74xFh/ and this drawing pares.mcu.es/ParesBu..atalogo/show/7345916 seem to indicate that those are glass windows.... maybe the mesh was there to add some protection, no idea. the name of the drawing means Glass hatch for the fins
also, I have something else... you had doubts about the propellers at some point... well, the picture above shows how they look today, and this one is the technical drawing for them pares.mcu.es/ParesBu..atalogo/show/7345907

Spanjaard
by the way, there are basically the same windows at the other side, maybe to check the other vertical propeller.

Sergio Ordonez
Spanjaard is right. Double layered glasses with an internal metallic wire were not uncommon in the past: also can be found today here in Spain in old medical facilities, schools and factories dating back the 40s, 50s and 60s, times when the use of plastic reinforcement elements like polyethylene was still expensive.
My concern here is: was this reinforcement system used in the XIX century? Arr these windows original or these glasses have been part of a later reconstruction in the XX century?
This mesh was intended to maintain the breaks on one side and not transmit them to the other side, like the impact proof windshields when know now in cars since the 50s-60s.

Sergio Ordonez
Well, after my investigation I noticed that this kind of mesh reindorced glass was first patented in 1892, near the year of construction of the sub, but five years after. So, these glasses probably have been added in a ayer reconstruction.

Spanjaard
Sergio, you know better about this kind of stuff, I think. but when looking at the section (bottom part of the drawing) it looks like two big pieces of glass and something else in between, could that be a third glass or may it be the base for the grill?

Spanjaard
honesty I have no idea 🙂

Spanjaard
actually it is kind of funny, since in some pictures of the time when the sub was in its pedestal in Cartagena, the complete hull was painted in the same color... included the glass of thewindows!, so know knows what has been done to it over the years! 😄

Ben M
Here's a viewport on a different early sub. I think having a grill was not uncommon flickr.com/gp/benmesander/953tNR3UH7

Jan Peters
Thanks for all the effort guys, I appreciate it.🙏🏻
Looking at the technical drawing of the port hole, it is clear to me that there are two glass panes, and there is a metal mesh in between them. It is not like the wire glass, but a small grill between them.
I will paint it looking like glass, not sure if I can recreate the grill as it is very small.

Sergio Ordonez
Spanjaard, I do not know better, mate: I am just currently working in a Factory built in 1961 (a kind of dinossaur) full of museum-piece parts. 😂
Jan, probably the wire mesh has the same purpose than the one for wired glass: in the event of a fracture in outer glass, this would not be transmitted to the inner glass.
Ben M painted wisely to another example in the same epoch and, probably, the patent for wired glass just show us an Evolution of the previous system show in photographs. I tried to find any reference in the XIX century but I have not found any, but wired mesh started to be popular near 1850 and glass became a mass production product (which means affordable and of popular use) earlier.
Just as a little depiction of the use of glass in the past: glass was soooo expensive back in the last part of XVIII century that healthy people built houses with many windows just to show their healthy to others.Glass was uncommon in middle and worker class Up to 1830 or 1840.
Even the British Government imposed a tax for houses based in the number of windows (tax that leed to one of the worst flu and tuberculosis epidemic ever remembered).

gorby
I thought I was following this build. 😄
Very nice work so far on a very basic looking kit.

Jan Peters
Thanks mates🙂

Jan Peters
I tried to punch a ring of mesh, but it is to small in size. It is 1.2mm in diameter, so the mesh falls apart when punched out.

gorby
At this scale I doubt the wires would be visible.

Spanjaard
i was thinking on taking a punch and die to cut a plastic circle (as thin as possible) and then try to scratch the lines of the mess in one side, glue it in place with the lines in the inside. you can actually make the lines first and then cut it, probably easier

Jan Peters
At 1.2mm it would still be near impossible, but i have another idea which I want to try.

Ben M
Why not scratch some lines in the back of the clear plastic?

Jan Peters
I think that is what Spanjaard said as well Ben.

Jan Peters
In the end I've painted a dot of copper in the middle, and filled in the rest with Tamiya smoke. Now you see a faint shade of copper behind the 'glass'

Spanjaard
looking good

Jennifer Franklin
The copper spot looks good with the smoke surrounding it. Very nice.

Jan Peters
All done 👍🏻
This was a fun project to build.
I would like to thank you all for helping me find answers to the how and what about this special machine, with a special thanks to Spanjaard 🙏🏻

gorby
Excellent weathering!

Robert Podkoński
Congrats, Jan. Great job!

Spanjaard
great job Jan! it was my pleasure to share the information I have 🙂

Pietro De Angelis
Beautiful work,
truly special vessel!

Jan Peters
Thanks a lot mates!

Guy Rump
Beautiful modelling, congrats! 👍

Jan Peters
Thanks Guy 🫡

Ben M
Well done, and I really like your choice of subject.

Jan Peters
Thanks Ben 🫡

Jennifer Franklin
Yes, I agree with Ben, it's a nice change of subject from the standard stuff. I love the weathering. You've made a model look real.

Jan Peters
Thanks Jennifer 🙏🏻

Neuling
I can only repeat: very well done!

Jan Peters
Thanks Neuling 🙏🏻

Jörg Schäfer
Looks pretty good. 👍

Jan Peters
Thanks Jörg 🙏🏻

Sergio Ordonez
Superb result, Jan. I bow my hat to you, mate.

Jan Peters
You're too kind Sergio 🙏🏻